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Hi, I've learned over many years what I now believe to be open minded to all religious views.
I don't claim to be an expert by do hold some strong views on Jesus.
I am willing to discuss any topic without any condemnation as long as the questions and or responses are civil and non derogatory.
I will respect your views if you can respect mind and anybody else.
Here is a chance to investigate other religious views in light of your own and have a better understanding about what makes them tick.
So, pick a subject and let's see if we can't help give understanding.
I am not here to convert anybody. If there is any conversions, it will be done by you.
Blessings, AJ
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Wasn’t Jesus A Liberal?
by Gary Vance
Liberalism has been under assault for years now. The battering of this grand political philosophy has altered the contemporary definition of liberal to the point that Conservatives use it as a profane word. They use it to paint a political opponent as anti-God and anti-American. It has gotten to the point that moderate and liberal Christians are afraid to be open about their political leanings. Sadly, it even affects their conscience and choices as they enter the voting booth. This is particularly troubling to me as a Christian evangelical minister who loves America.
Liberalism as defined by Webster’s Third New International Dictionary: “a political philosophy based on belief in progress, the essential goodness of man, and the autonomy of the individual and standing for tolerance and freedom for the individual from arbitrary authority in all spheres of life…”
I am not sure why anyone would feel threatened by Liberalism as defined by the dictionary. They are apparently unaware or simply refuse to acknowledge the long history of liberals who have labored for the betterment of society and the furthering of God’s Kingdom.
The labor movement of the early twentieth century was aided significantly when major Christian denominations got behind it. No average American would have a fair wage today if it weren’t for liberal Christians and labor activists. Liberal Christians and civil rights activists fought and still fight against conservative America for racial equality. Child labor laws were enacted because liberals fought for them. Medicare and Social Security exist today because of Liberalism. “Bleeding heart liberals” have long advocated for the homeless, the hungry, the less fortunate, and the disenfranchised. The women of America owe liberals a big thank you for their almost equal rights. “Tree hugging liberals” fight for clean air and water standards instead of favoring industrial polluters and short term profiteering that destroy God’s green earth.
Liberals believe in affordable health care for all U.S. citizens. They also believe in higher taxes for the rich and lower taxes for the middle class and the poor. Liberals love their spouses and children. Liberals faithfully attend their churches to worship God. Liberals love America and hate terrorism and have proved it by fighting in every war for this country. Liberals come in all shapes, sizes, and color. They are found in the ranks of Protestants, Catholics, Jews, agnostics, and atheists.
Conservative Republican policies generally favor the wealthy and ignore the needs of the poor. Their policies are so often greed-driven, with no concern for the environmental or societal consequences for their exploitive actions. Jesus plainly taught that the love of money is the root of all evil. So, Christians can go after the various “fruit” of sin in our society, but they won’t see the real change for the better until the axe is laid to the root. Christians should oppose greed-driven policies as a primary point of political concern.
I am sick of reading letters to the editor and editorials that paint Democrats and liberals as anti-God and anti-American and that portray conservative Republicans as the only true Christian patriots. We know that many Democrats are pro-choice and many support gay issues and this troubles most evangelicals. Democrats also support causes that should be of Christian concern that go untouched by Republicans. I have listed some in the above paragraphs. True prophetic vision sees that there is great need for repentance on the left and the right. The effects of powerful lobbyists, special interest groups, greed and corruption abound on both sides of the aisles of Congress. God sees it all and so should Christians. Christian voters need to see that God’s heart breaks over more than just a few political and moral issues. It is time to take off our blinders and mourn for the sorry state of affairs that is American politics.
Jesus was the ultimate liberal progressive revolutionary of all history. The conservative religious and social structure that He defied hated and crucified Him. They examined His life and did not like what they saw. He aligned Himself with the poor and the oppressed. He challenged the religious orthodoxy of His day. He advocated pacifism and loving our enemies. He liberated women and minorities from oppression. He healed on the Sabbath and forgave adulterers and prostitutes. He associated with drunks and other social outcasts. He rebuked the religious right of His day because they embraced the letter of the law instead of the Spirit. He loved sinners and called them to Himself. Jesus was the original Liberal. He was a progressive, and He was judged and hated for it. It was the self-righteous religionists that He rebuked and He called them hypocrites.
The primary issues of Christian Liberalism were birthed when Jesus spoke the profoundly prophetic words found in Matthew 25: 31-46. These scriptures reveal God’s heart for the poor, the sick and other neglected people through out history. Christians should read this text and judge for themselves which of the two groups mentioned there more accurately reflect the political parties of today. His Liberalism lives on today and the issues have not changed much.
I am glad that conservative Republican candidates advocate for the family and a few Christian issues, but we must quit pretending that they are the only ones that Christians should consider voting for. People should not call themselves pro-life if they are only anti-abortion and yet feel no twinge of conscience over the unfair application of capital punishment or wars fought for dubious motives. A true pro-life position cares just as passionately for the born as the un-born and views war as a last resort when all other options are exhausted.
Christians should look for candidates that will work for issues that are of importance to Christ and that can be tackled legislatively. Sadly, most of those causes have historically been opposed, ignored, and minimized by conservative Republican policy makers. They seem to dangle the moral issues carrot around election time. Then, even with a Republican controlled White House and Congress, prove themselves powerless to do anything about those issues when they convene to legislate. Issues such as eliminating poverty and homelessness in America, true equal rights for all citizens, environmental protection, a fair minimum wage, affordable health care, and lowering our infant mortality rate all go unattended. That’s just to name a few.
I have some questions for the Christian Right. Why have you not held your elected officials accountable for their failure to address the full spectrum of Christian issues? Why would you vote for them again?
It is time for Christians of conscience to stand up to religious and political hypocrisy. Christians should proudly proclaim progressive values today and should advocate for the Christian Liberalism that is our heritage and our legacy.
Gary Vance (Lezlo2025@wmconnect.com) lives in Loretto, Tennessee.
Last edited by Frank (Sunday September 13th 2009 10:41:27 am)
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Hi, Gary Vance
First of all: my view only in response to your question, and continued commentary.
I like to separate what is God’s from what are humanities.
To label Jesus as a liberal according to human belief is thinking in terms of human thought.
Question is, how does God look at what Jesus did is what really matters.
Now there are terms like “liberals” and “Fundamentalist Right wingers”.
These terms incorporate varying degrees of position from a middle point.
Whatever the object of criticism is intended one towards the other is termed using those same words.
As a believer in Jesus Christ as my Savior, I believe He came to rectify a designed fault ingrained in the creation of the human soul.
In order to do that, degree to transgression had to have a standard charged to the human soul.
That standard was the Ten Commandments.
Condemnation of all human souls both before and after Jesus Christ came under the Ten Commandments whether they were addressed to the nation of Israel or not.
Once degree was added to the transgression (sin) there by no human soul could escape the penalty of eternal death.
Jesus then, born of God and of humanity was both Son of God and son of man.
A direct representative of God but without condemnation to eternal death, which qualified Him as a starting point for a new generation of souls: this time with life everlasting.
But before that could happen, the first, the old system had to be brought to an end of which it did at the cross.
Now, it is easy to see that from Jesus’ brake from the strictness of the law seems to be a “liberal” interpretation thus combining Godliness with mankind’s politics.
Yes, Jesus did liberate us from the bondage of the law and eternal death, but He also liberated us to exercise Godly principals, such as love thy neighbor.
Now, within the ranks of both political parties and independents are good folk who do exercise Godly principals.
But when those Godly principals are compromises due to political expediency, then that’s where the line is drawn.
I do have my beliefs about certain issues that are politically unpopular and have no problem standing up against them as a freedom loving individual set free by the love of God to be exercised towards all mankind regardless of political affiliations.
Caesar is a type of human government in the hands of either Godly people or fence straddles or non-believers or all three of them.
What then is the fight? Is it God verses politics? Or is it Godly principal’s verses human politics?
Godly principals are set down first in stone, then within the human heart, that is, if one is so inclined.
It is up to us then, the responsibility to manage our system of government.
You know that Jesus allowed Himself to be under the rule of the Roman Government as well as under the rule of the Jewish High Priests.
Doing that, Jesus was given credit to the systems that were in place. Had He not, then He would have spoken out against the government but instead, on spoke out against the High priests because they represented what was God’s.
Mar 12:17 And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marveled at him.
So, I say to you all, liberal or republican and independents, let your heart judge under Godly principals, not compromising them for human gain, but to stand up against all injustices as that is our responsibility and not God’s.
Jesus was the ultimate liberal progressive revolutionary of all history. The conservative religious and social structure that He defied hated and crucified Him. They examined His life and did not like what they saw. He aligned Himself with the poor and the oppressed. He challenged the religious orthodoxy of His day. He advocated pacifism and loving our enemies. He liberated women and minorities from oppression. He healed on the Sabbath and forgave adulterers and prostitutes. He associated with drunks and other social outcasts. He rebuked the religious right of His day because they embraced the letter of the law instead of the Spirit. He loved sinners and called them to Himself. Jesus was the original Liberal. He was a progressive, and He was judged and hated for it. It was the self-righteous religionists that He rebuked and He called them hypocrites.>>>Gary
I agree with what you said there looking at it from the human standpoint.
But looking at it from God’s point of view is the eradication of the death sentence based on the letter of the law that had no heart.
What Jesus demonstrated was not liberalism, but what was needed from a repentant heart, mainly a new birth, that now after His sacrifice; we are free to rule from the heart verses from the letter of the law.
The law now is but a guide, and our hearts determine whether we will feed the poor the oppressed, and rule our own lives in that manner.,
Legislating morality is the same as being under the letter of the law without heart and in which does us one any good.
I have some questions for the Christian Right. Why have you not held your elected officials accountable for their failure to address the full spectrum of Christian issues? Why would you vote for them again?>>>Gary
Compromised!
Blessings, AJ
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AJ wrote:
To label Jesus as a liberal according to human belief is thinking in terms of human thought. Question is, how does God look at what Jesus did is what really matters.
The opinions offered and questions raised by “Gary Vance” were done so “in terms of human thought” because there is no other way that you or I can think. We humans think only “in terms of human thought”.
Evangelical Minister, Gary Vance, simply asked Christians to read Matthew 25: 31-46 and Judge for themselves who reflects more the teachings of Jesus.
Who more reflects the teachings of Jesus: The evangelical right wing who voted eight years for the establishment of two body litered war torn trillion dollar welfare nations while lining the pockets of military profiteers with hundreds of billions of dollars (all to be paid for by our children and grandchildren) and leaving our country in near financial collapse… or those who propose providing medical care for the poor?
It’s a simple question, AJ.
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The opinions offered and questions raised by “Gary Vance” were done so “in terms of human thought” because there is no other way that you or I can think. We humans think only “in terms of human thought”.
That's true that human thought is the only way we humans think, my fault for not using the right words.
How God sees things is not how we seem to think that God sees things.
We seem to think that liberalism as described by Gary is the way God views it, or lets say, tie our views to make it look like God has the same view.
God does liberate a soul from the bondage of eternal death sentence and from the bondage of man made religious doctrines.
But to insinuate that progressive liberalism is a view that God promotes, I believe is a miss-statement.
Frank wrote:
Who more reflects the teachings of Jesus: The evangelical right wing who voted eight years for the establishment of two body litered war torn trillion dollar welfare nations while lining the pockets of military profiteers with hundreds of billions of dollars (all to be paid for by our children and grandchildren) and leaving our country in near financial collapse… or those who propose providing medical care for the poor?
Who reflects the teachings of Jesus is judged by the actions of each individual's heart.
Blessings, AJ
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AJ wrote:
How God sees things is not how we seem to think that God sees things.
How does God see things, AJ?
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Frank wrote:
AJ wrote:
How God sees things is not how we seem to think that God sees things.
How does God see things, AJ?
Hmmmm......do I sense a little annoyance in the way you asked the question?
God as you know is no respecter of persons.
Act 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
Act 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
That would include both Democrats, Republican and Independents.
Not only those but all over the world, "in every nation".
So, to conclude that democrats are closer to the Jesus' standards is only a bi-partisan view and not a Godly view.
That is why I say, politics and religion don't mix, but we can govern based on Godly principles.
There are two distinct Commandments for those who place their trust in God, one, love God and two, love thy neighbor.
The only possible way for God to give us those two and not hold it binding on us as unworthiness, is for Him to grant us His righteousness over ours.
Hence, there is no respect from God as to what we espouse, but what is in our hearts that He sees.
Now, whether we abide and do the things the commandments declares, falls on our own consequences.
Only then can politics factor in, but then again, it is of our own making.
Some believe that capital punishment is not right, and others do.
If God grants mankind His righteousness, to the just and the unjust alike, then it is up to us to manage our own behavior, our own government, and deal with those issues accordingly.
1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
I gave those two verses not as stand alone verses but because they are in concert with the whole of God's word in respect to mankind's salvation.
So, for me to say that God is this or that, based on my own political or religious views is not the same as how God views it.
My first concern is to God, second to mankind as my works shall be judged while I am here, alive and with consequences due in the flesh only.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Hence, your sins are due and payable, your rewards are to, while you are alive, but life after this is a gift, and the rewards in heaven are unthinkable.
1Pe 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you
"inheritance", meaning like "wow, what all am I being given".
I bless God for all His long suffering, compassion and love for me, that I, but like a pebble of sand in the sands of the whole sea, am counted worthy to receive so great a salvation, as a free gift.
I don't see God as anything but loving.
Blessings, AJ
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Which God? The judeo-christian-akhenatinian one? Yes very loving indeed - he was fond of Egyptian morsels. God suffers, is this the oxy part or the moron part? Rom 6:23 = proof of the sins of the lord thus if in fact he is the sinning mangod then god is dead. At least he isn't suffering anymore.
It's a shame Gary didn't pay attention to Matt -
1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.
1:17 So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.
Tracing someones lineage through someone they are not even related to qualifies Matt as an obsessive nutjob. Further proof for those who don't pay attention to what they are spoonfed available upon request.
We can only hope next time that Gary uses Luke.
Last edited by bubba (Sunday September 20th 2009 9:03:39 pm)
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bubba wrote:
Which God? The judeo-christian-akhenatinian one? Yes very loving indeed - he was fond of Egyptian morsels. God suffers, is this the oxy part or the moron part? Rom 6:23 = proof of the sins of the lord thus if in fact he is the sinning mangod then god is dead. At least he isn't suffering anymore.
It's a shame Gary didn't pay attention to Matt -
1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.
1:17 So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.
Tracing someones lineage through someone they are not even related to qualifies Matt as an obsessive nutjob. Further proof for those who don't pay attention to what they are spoonfed available upon request.
We can only hope next time that Gary uses Luke.
I'm not sure just what you are saying, but here is my take on the verse Rom:6:23.
To fully appreciate the work of God in human form, it's suffering, Jesus, one needs to see the picture clearly as to what God did.
Creation, separation, reconciliation. All those are God's works in behalf of mankind.
Between each of those words, mankind is fitted.
As for Jesus' linage, Matt gives a workable picture, but really, Jesus was born out of wedlock, for His father was not Joesph, but God via the Holy Spirit.
A stranger to Israel indeed. Jer 14:8 O the hope of Israel, the saviour thereof in time of trouble, why shouldest thou be as a stranger in the land, and as a wayfaring man [that] turneth aside to tarry for a night?
2Ch 6:33 Then hear thou from the heavens, [even] from thy dwelling place, and do according to all that the stranger calleth to thee for; that all people of the earth may know thy name, and fear thee, as [doth] thy people Israel, and may know that this house which I have built is called by thy name.
Blessings, AJ
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Your take on Rom 6:23? My take on your take is that you are drunk on kool-aid for the lord. My take on Rom 6:23 is exactly what it says - For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Matt would give a workable picture if he simply put it like this - 1:16 And Jacob begat God the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.
1:17 So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.
There is no way to trace Jesus to David through Joe thus disqualifying Jesus as the messiah.
Now go read Luke where they try to krazy glue Jesus to Dave through his mom but pay attention this time. Or better yet bring it up in bible study and see if pastor dufus double talks you into a workable solution of contrived prophecy.
Last edited by bubba (Tuesday September 22nd 2009 12:32:49 am)
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bubba wrote:
There is no way to trace Jesus to David through Joe thus disqualifying Jesus as the messiah.
David had a son out of wedlock of which died after 7 days to the day after it was born.
The promise is this: 2Sa 7:12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.
Meaning after Kind David died, that the son that proceeded out of his bowels would establish His kingdom.
Which son was that? And the verse says, "his kingdom", of which speak?
Surely, King Solomon built the temple and a kingdom after King David: 1Ki 2:12 Then sat Solomon upon the throne of David his father; and his kingdom was established greatly.
Yet, King Solomon s kingdom and temple had an end.
So then we can count that linage out, because God said: 1Ch 22:10 Heshall build an house for my name; and he shall be my son, and I [will be] his father; and I will establish the throne of his kingdom over Israel for ever.
Yes, it speaks of Solomon here, but again, Solomon s kingdom and temple are not "established forever", since they had an end.
But look, If David was Solomon's father, and God says: "he shall be my son, and I [will be] his father",then it must not be Solomon spoken of here.
The son that died in 7 days from birth is again "begotten of the dead", this time, God being the Father, and Jesus being His Son.
Now we have a direct linage from King Davids own bowels whose Father is God and whose throne is established forever, yet a stranger not accepted into the fold of Isreal because Mary was with child and without a husband: born out of wedlock.
Hence: Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
Mat 21:9 And the multitudes that went before, and that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna to the Son of David: Blessed [is] he that cometh in the name of the Lord; Hosanna in the highest.
Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
"Begotten of the dead" Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, [who is] the faithful witness, [and] the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
Prince a faithful witness not yet king until crowned.Therefore, Jesus was a prince begotten of the dead and then crowned King at the cross.and again, resurrected from the dead as the first, and afterwords, mankind.
So, you are correct in your view but possibly, can explain why not?
Mary does come from Davids linage but not by direct decedent.
Definitely, not a traditional view and one hard to digest.
Yet, Jesus was a stranger in His own land.
Blessings, AJ
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Nice dance look except that you are using the discredited book of Matthew as reference therefore nullifying your references to Luke. The entire new testament except for Luke should be removed from the cannon. The words of Luke which are in the bible and therefore the word of god make Luke more of the messiah than Jesus.
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bubba wrote:
Nice dance look except that you are using the discredited book of Matthew as reference therefore nullifying your references to Luke. The entire New Testament except for Luke should be removed from the cannon. The words of Luke which are in the bible and therefore the word of god make Luke more of the messiah than Jesus.
The four gospels give us a picture of the four faces of Jesus. King/servant, son of man/Son of God and addressed to four different groups.
http://flyingparson.com/documents/uploa … ospels.pdf
You will find it rather interesting.
Again, focus on the works of God.
Blessings, AJ
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AJ wrote:
Again, focus on the works of God.
As allegedly boasted by the Lord in Isaiah 45:7 (King James version)?
"I make peace, and create EVIL"
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Frank,
Just by what you said leads me to believe that you are not traditionally stuck, but rather open to the fact that God is more than what tradition gives Him credit for.
I would like to add a verse to that: Psa 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
Does that not make one wonder if there is more to God than what is traditionally taught?
That is why nuggets of truth are worth finding.
Blessings, AJ
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look3467 wrote:
bubba wrote:
Nice dance look except that you are using the discredited book of Matthew as reference therefore nullifying your references to Luke. The entire New Testament except for Luke should be removed from the cannon. The words of Luke which are in the bible and therefore the word of god make Luke more of the messiah than Jesus.
The four gospels give us a picture of the four faces of Jesus. King/servant, son of man/Son of God and addressed to four different groups.
http://Go_Read_Someones_Interpretations … urself.pdf
You will find it rather interesting.
Again, focus on the works of God.
Blessings, AJ
I do not find predigested crap interesting. And I doubt God would use deceit to show his works. Sure he might rape someone, kill a few thousand people and command others to sin by bearing false witness but to pretend to be related to someone to prove a point - no, that is soley a new testament phenomenon similar to some of the nonsense Joe Smith pulled centuries later.
And I do focus on the works of God, his/her/its suicide is of particular interest.
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Bubba
Question to you, were the Jews deceived in thinking that Jesus was not the Messiah? Had they thought so, they would have not sacrificed Him on the cross?
Blessings, AJ
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The Jews "sacrificed" Jesus on the cross? In any claim the one making the claim provides the evidence, not the other way around. The scribblers of the new testament make claims of Jesus. As far as the multitude of believers choosing Jesus over another to be nailed, how would one actually kill the one who has power over life and death?
You can choose to have Billy-Bob killed or this rock that we found on the ground. Please choose the rock so we can see if it dies.
If the Jews chose Barabas would it too been a sacrifice? And if so what for?
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bubba wrote:
The Jews "sacrificed" Jesus on the cross? In any claim the one making the claim provides the evidence, not the other way around. The scribblers of the new testament make claims of Jesus. As far as the multitude of believers choosing Jesus over another to be nailed, how would one actually kill the one who has power over life and death?
You can choose to have Billy-Bob killed or this rock that we found on the ground. Please choose the rock so we can see if it dies.
If the Jews chose Barabbas would it too been a sacrifice? And if so what for?
The story of Barabbas over Jesus is a similar story to Abraham's Issac.
In both cases the one that was condemned to die was replaced by the innocent one in its place and the condemned one allowed to live.
I don't expect you to understand its reasoning, yet it is a fact if, God is to offer us salvation and we accept it in faith.
Ironically, I have chosen the rock, and the rock did die.
Psa 95:1 O come, let us sing unto the LORD: let us make a joyful noise to the rock of our salvation.
1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Chris.
If Jesus the rock was to be saved, then you and I would have to be sacrifficed.
But instead, Barabbas and Issac, representing us, who were/are sparred, and the rock sacrificed in our place.
Blessings, AJ
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Rocks are not alive they can not die, the Jews did not sacrifice Jesus in our place. Nor did the Jews go around automatically believing that every nut on the corner claiming to be the messiah was the messiah. When such claims of Jesus came to light they were not tricked by slight of hand or deceptive lineage. IF Jesus were the son of god then he could be held accountable for the sins of God, stuff like murder and rape and bearing false witness of which that God is famous for.
If Jesus the rock was to be saved, then you and I would have to be sacrifficed. Not true, all we would have to do is buy a dove for sacrifice in lieu of our firstborn. But I am sure that by now dove would be extinct and about the only thing left worthy of being sacrificed would be a mosquito.
If god is to offer salvation then he would have to be held accounatble for his own sins and play by his own rules. Fortunatley for him he is god and does whatever he wants, even expect from us that which he is unwilling to abide in.
Last edited by bubba (Saturday September 26th 2009 7:11:54 pm)
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Bubba
Rocks are not alive they can not die, the Jews did not sacrifice Jesus in our place.
Literally, rocks have no life, but figuratively, yes. Jesus is figuratively a rock; as solid as a rock, the same yesterday, today and tomorrow, no change.
The Jewish high priests had the authority to offer sacrificial animals for the covering of their sins.
The Jewish High priests were instruments in the hands of God, meaning ordained by God, to offer Jesus, Gods son in lieu of us.
They would have to be blind not to see Jesus as Gods Son, thus preventing the offering of Jesus as a sacrifice for the whole world.
Abraham’s son Isaac’s life was spared in lieu of the goat in the bush.
Our life (spiritually speaking) was sparred in lieu of God’s Son.
If Jesus the rock was to be saved, then you and I would have to be sacrificed. Not true, all we would have to do is buy a dove for sacrifice in lieu of our firstborn. But I am sure that by now dove would be extinct and about the only thing left worthy of being sacrificed would be a mosquito.
Animal sacrifice has ceased for the covering of sins.
With Jesus, one sacrifice for all time forgives sins.
There is a difference between covering and forgiving.
If god is to offer salvation then he would have to be held accountable for his own sins and play by his own rules. Fortunately for him he is god and does whatever he wants, even expect from us that which he is unwilling to abide in.
You have no idea of how much truth there is to your question above.
God was accountable for what He did to place you and I on this earth without our permission.
Why should a supposedly perfect man, a man of God have the anger of all humanity taken out on Him?
Do you suppose that man anger was directed at God and taken out on His son?
Can you now see Gods offer to humanity? His Son and then forgive us for our anger?
Yes, Gods own rules He Himself had to meet, where we could not, thus the anger.
Blessings, AJ
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So god is dead and Jesus is a time traveler - wow this shit is getting deep.
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bubba wrote:
So god is dead and Jesus is a time traveler - wow this shit is getting deep.
Well, at least I got a response that we can work from.
If you want to use the God is dead view and Jesus being a time traveler, then we are making some sense.
The bible speaks of Jesus as being the only name under the heavenly abode of God by which mankind can be saved.
Does that make Jesus then God? I mean if Jesus is the only name, then it must mean that the first God can not save us right, but Jesus can?
Now, unless you think Jesus is also dead, then your view is correct, for in your view, there is no God and from that view, the hope of an after life is non existent.
So why even try to do good in this life if only for the short span we have?
If you say for the children, then what hope can you give them, that their only hope is a short span of life?
Where as if the hope of life after this one is the hope, and that hope passed on to your children, the hope remains that your efforts gained in this world helped theirs, and that one day, all of us can reunite in the after life.
Blessings, AJ
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Anybody care to discuss what the works of God are verses the works of man?
What I am interested in is identifying what effects the works of God have that mankind can not effect.
Blessings, AJ
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